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科技同傳:AI時代人類的教育


來源:天之聰口譯    作者:天之聰口譯   時間:2019-09-19 10:03   點擊: 次  


科技類同傳--地球最強二馬激辯:AI時代人類的教育

Hello! 聰迷們,轉眼間又開學嘍,2019年下半場準備好怎么通關木有?CATTI報完名得馬上學起來啦,時間真是嗖嗖地一晃而過,了無痕跡!

2019世界人工智能大會World Artificial Intelligence Conference (WAIC)剛剛落幕,但雙馬(特斯拉首席執行官埃隆·馬斯克(Elon Musk)和阿里巴巴董事局主席馬云)精彩紛呈的激辯讓人久久不能平復,尤其是兩位對于教育問題的抱怨及解決方案。馬云說,“現在很多人擔心工作、失業,而我最擔心的是我們的教育,擔心我們的教育系統、擔心我們教孩子的內容和我們教孩子的方式。馬斯克則表示:未來教育應該圍繞“如何提高對未來的預測力”展開。過去,人類在判斷未來時犯了太多錯誤。

正如兩位大佬所言,要解決人類所面臨的問題,教育是關鍵。下面,我們來挑戰下,給技術大牛做同傳!

Let’s talk about education, I’m quite interested about education. Can we? What knowledge or skills will be useful to master the future? Do you have any advice for young professionals who want to pursue a career in AI?

馬云:我對教育很感興趣,講一下教育吧。未來要我們掌握哪些知識或者技能,從而有助于我們獲得更多優勢?對于想要從事人工智能的年輕人你有什么建議嗎?

Young professionals, I don’t think we will have professionals in AI in the future. People worry about jobs, but I worry about education. All the education systems, things we teach our kids, the way we teach our kids, are mainly designed for the industrial period. I’m sure the machine will be much clever than human beings in the future. How can human being do better? Human being should be smarter, human being should be wiser? How can we human beings to be wiser or smarter? I think we should change the way of education, change the things.

馬云:我認為在未來不會有人工智能的專業人士。人們經常擔心工作,我擔心的是教育。所有的教育體系給孩子教的東西,教的方式主要是為工業時代所設計的,我相信機器會更加聰明,會比人在未來聰明很多。人怎么能夠做得更好,怎么變得更智慧更聰明呢?我們應該改變教育方式,改變教的內容。

Because in the past, we focus a lot about, you know, remember things. Computer can remember better than you are. We want to calculate faster, computer can calculate much faster. We want to run faster, computer can run much faster than you are. So human beings should have confidence by be more creative, more constructive. So, how can we teach our kids to be more creative and constructive? I think this is the key of the education.

馬云:過去我們專注的都是記憶,但計算機可以比你記得更好,算得更快,你想要跑得更快,但機器可以跑得比你更快。人類要更有創意,更有建設性,怎么教孩子有更多的創意、更有建設性呢?我覺得這是教育的關鍵。

I want spending more time on training kids on arts, on painting, on singing, on dancing. You know on these creative things that make people live like humans. Don’t worry about machines. For sure, we should understand one thing that man can never make another man. Computer is a computer, computer is just a toy. Man cannot even make a mosquito. We should have confidence, computer only have chips, men have the heart. It’s the heart where the wisdom comes from. So I think in the next ten or twenty years, human beings of every country, every government should focus on reform the education system, making sure our kids be able to find jobs in the future, be able to live a life that only work three days a week, four hours a day, and that is very important. If we do not change the education system that we are in, we are all in going to be in trouble, that’s my view. Don’t worry about it, we will change it.

馬云:我們可以花更多時間來訓練培訓孩子去學藝術,學畫畫,學跳舞,這些都是創意的事情。我們要理解一點,人從來沒有辦法制造一個人。計算機就是機器,機器就是一個玩具。我們要有信心,機器只有芯片,而我們有心,我們的心是智慧的來源。所以接下來的10年20年,各個國家、政府應該去改革教育體系來確保孩子能夠找到工作,在今后每周只工作3天,每天工作4個小時,這是非常重要的。

Yeh, I want to say try to learn as much as possible that allows you to predict the future or make the future. Saddest thing is the best way to predict future is to make it. Assess what you’re learning is enabling you to predict the future with less error. We always wrong to some degree, but can you reduce the error on your future predictions. I think that’s the way to look at education. Of course, with both creative create the future and predict the future, so that includes art and a lot of other things. With close loop on being less wrong about future, I’d say that’s the right way you think about education.

馬斯克:是的。要盡可能多地多學一點,讓自己能夠更好地預測未來、創造未來。預測未來最好的方法就是去創造未來。我們要評估一下自己在學的東西,是不是能夠讓自己預測未來,讓自己減少錯誤?我們可以通過這個方式來思考教育。

Down the road was neural link, you can just upload any subject instantly. So, we like the matrix. If you want to do whatever any given skill, we just upload instantly. On the way, education works now extremely low bandwidth. Lectures are the worst, really. Try to predict the future with less error, this is very hard, as you say our share is 99.99%, it’s not really good generally our predictable future. But I think the first thing is to try, you got try and then adjust based on error of your previous predictions.

馬斯克:說到神經連接,我們可以把任何東西進行上傳,任何技能都可以即刻上傳。現在的教育是帶寬很低很慢的,講課是最糟糕的方法。預測未來時,我們要犯更少的錯也是很難的,并不一定99%是錯,但是我們經常錯得很多。我們還是要去嘗試,不嘗試不行,要去嘗試、去調整,根據之前預測的錯誤做調整。

I think just try is very good. We should always have the confidence to try in the future. I never worry about errors and mistakes. Errors and mistakes are the best assets of human lives. I think when people worry about the disasters that AI is gonna brining, I think it’s not the disasters, it’s the mistakes that human beings make. Trust human beings will be able to correct the mistake and improve themselves. That we will need education.

馬云:是的,去嘗試很好,我們要永遠有信心在未來做嘗試。錯誤可以說是人類最好的資產、最好的財富,人們擔心人工智能災難的時候,我覺得這并不是災難或者人類犯的錯,我們要相信人類是能夠改善錯誤,改善自己的。這就需要教育。

In China today, we have 18 hundred new babies born every year, which is not enough, we need have much more than that. I think the best resources of the human beings, or the best resources on the earth are not the coal, not oil, not electricity. It’s the human brains. How can we make the human brains more creative, constructive? How can we make sure that the machines are always the toys and tools of humans, rather than the control. So, I never in my life, especially last two years when people talk about AI say human beings will be controlled by machines, I never think about that, I think it’s impossible, because human beings are different, machines invented by human beings. According to the science, humans can never create another animal that is smarter than humans, especially here we have so many smart people. It’s impossible to make another smart people.

馬云:今天在中國每年都有大量嬰兒出生,這還不夠,我們需要更多。地球上最早的資源并不是煤炭、石油、電力,而是人類的大腦,怎么讓人類大腦更有創意、更有建設性呢?怎么確保機器永遠是人類的玩具和工具,而不是控制我們呢?在我這一輩子當中尤其過去兩年,大家經常談人工智能,說人類會被機器控制,我從來不想這些問題,這是不可能的。因為人是不一樣的,機器是人類發明的。根據科學,人從來無法創造一個比自己更聰明的動物,在這里有很多聰明人,但我們還是沒有辦法創造一個更聰明的人。

I very much disagree with that.

馬斯克:我非常不同意你的看法。

Ok, that’s good.

馬云:這非常好。

We can definitely make things smarter than ourselves, I mean they don’t used to be humans. Early civilizations are very primitive. We don’t have any technology really, we just run and run, you know trying not to get eaten, survive the winter. Now we have like heating, we grew food, these are all new stuff. So, things are obvious that we are smarter than the past. That will continue, we are not the last step of revolution. The most important thing, like you said, the most important mistake I say smart people making is assuming they are smart.

馬斯克:我們可以創造比我們更聰明的東西,他們并不一定要是人。最早的文明是非常原始的,當時沒有任何技術,只是跑來跑去,不要被別人吃掉,想要生存下來。現在我們有取暖,有很多的食物,這些都是新的東西。我們比過去聰明了很多,這會繼續下去,并不是最后的革命。像你說的,聰明人犯的最嚴重的錯誤就是自以為聰明。

So, give me example, what the animals or things that human being made that is smarter than human beings?

馬云:我舉一個例子,哪個人類創造的東西比人更聰明?

Computers actually are already much smarter than people on so many dimensions, we just keep moving the goal posts. We used to think like, for example, being good at chess was an example of smart human. Kasparov was crushed by deep learning in 1997, that was a long time ago. 22 years, I mean right now your cellphone could crush the world champion chess literally. Go used to be sort of something that human beings are better than computers. Lee Sedol was beaten for 4:1 by Alpha Zero. Alpha Zero crushed AlphaGo 100:0. Now, it’s just pointless because it just keeps explaining itself, humans trying to play computer Go is like trying to fight Zues, it’s not gonna work, we are hopeless. This is just a small corner of intellectual pursuit that humans are better than computers, every year they get smaller and smaller. We far surpass it in every single way guaranteed. Or civilization win, those are two possibilities.

馬斯克:計算機已經在很多方面比人更聰明了,我們的目標在變得更高。比如過去下棋是聰明人才會下的,現在你的手機就可以下棋打敗世界冠軍。圍棋以前大家覺得人比電腦強,但是李世石被阿爾法go 4:1打敗了,阿爾法zero 100:0打敗了阿爾法go。人類和計算機下圍棋就像和宙斯斗爭一樣是沒有希望的,我們差太遠了。人類智力會在越來越少的方面表現得比計算機好,每個方面以后會被計算機越來越多的超越,這是肯定的,或者文明能夠取勝,這是兩個可能。

My view is that computer may be clever, but human beings are much smarter. Clever is very academic, it’s knowledge-driven; smarter is experience-driven. Computer is clever, but it’s human being, we invented computer, we never see a computer invented a human being.

馬云:計算機可能更聰明,但是人類要有更多的智慧。聰明是學術驅動的,但是智慧是經驗驅動的。計算機很聰明,但是是人類發明了計算機,我從來沒有看到計算機發明一個人。

Second point is that about Go play chess. It’s stupid to compete with a computer on play Go. Just like a hundred years ago when human being created cars, human being say I can run faster than car, it’s impossible. It’s only stupid people to compete with a car who run faster. Go is designed for human to play with human. The chess is designed for human to human, why should a human to fight against a computer? So, I never ever play chess or Go with computer. I will be happy to see two computers fight each other, I’m not interested in playing Go with chess. So, I told those guys they are very sad, computer will be smarter than human beings because computers can play chess better. I think you’re stupid to compete with that, don’t do that. We always do things we are good at.

馬云:第二點,說到圍棋和下棋。和計算機下棋這很愚蠢,像100年前人們創造了機器,人們說我可以比汽車跑得快這是不可能的,只有傻子才會去和汽車去賽跑。圍棋是為人類設計的,棋是讓人和人下的,為什么人要和計算機下棋呢?我從來不下棋,不和計算機下圍棋。很高興看兩個計算機下棋,但是我對于和計算機下棋沒有興趣。有些人很悲傷說計算機比人聰明,計算機下棋下得更好,我覺得和計算機下棋很傻,不要這樣做,我們要做我們擅長的事情。

What would be an example of something that humans are better than computer and let’s see if that happens?

馬斯克:人比計算機哪些方面比較強,會不會發生這樣的情況?

Computer is only one of the clever tools that humans created. Computers are clever, but there will be more tools that human beings will create much clever than computer. That’s my view.

馬云:計算機只是人類創造的聰明的工具之一。計算機是聰明的,但是人類今后會創造更多的工具,會比計算機聰明更多,這是我的看法。

Let me tell you my view on AI is essentially you can view the advancement of AI as solving things with increasing degrees of freedom. So, the most degree of freedom is reality. AI is steadily advanced, solving things that have more and more degrees of freedom. Obviously, something like checker was very easy to solve. We can solve with classical software, classical computing, not really challenging. And there is complete solution for checkers, meaning it’s literally impossible. Every version of checkers is known. Chess, it had many many more degrees of freedom than checkers, was still really I would say a low degree of freedom game. Then there is Go which had more degrees of freedom than chess. So, it’s really steeping through all these magnitudes of degree of freedom, this is the way to view the advancement of intelligence. We can completely simulate a person in every way like many people simultaneously.

馬斯克:對于人工智能,我的看法是,說到底你可以推進人工智能來解決問題,讓人們有更多的自由度。有最多自由度的就是現實。比如下跳棋是很容易解決的,用傳統的軟件計算機就可以解決的,這沒有什么挑戰。可以說在下跳棋方面,機器有完整的解決方案,人類幾乎不可能贏,機器對人類的每一個套路都已經知道了。然后就是象棋,自由度比跳棋高很多,但是也是自由度數量級比較低的游戲。之后到了圍棋,自由度比象棋高很多,所以我們不斷地在跳躍自由度,數量級在不斷地上升,智能的數量級也在不斷地上升,可以完全模擬人的各個方面。

Someone make a joke of like, you know, if life was a video game, what would be the view. Graphics are incredible, the plot is confusing. The reborn takes a long time, that’s video game, that’s life. Takes 20 years for human being to have consciousness. I’m worried about the birth rate which you iterate early, most people think we have too many people on the planet, but actually this is an outdated view. It’s seeming that AI is fine, it’s seeming that there is enabling future with AI. I think the biggest problem the world will face in 20 years is population collapse. I want to emphasize this, the biggest issue in 20 years will be population collapse. Not explosion, collapse. It’s very easy to see what the world would look like in 20 years because humans have a 20 year ooze-quence. So, like you said who was born last year, now you know what the world would look like in 20 years, it’s that easy.  

馬斯克:有人說現在我們就活在一種模擬當中,有人開玩笑說,如果生活就是一種游戲,那么大家有什么看法呢?我覺得我們的圖像很好,情節也非常復雜,但是要讓一個人重生獲得完全的意識可能還要20多年。你講的出生率我并不擔心,大多數人覺得人口太多了,但是這是一種過時的看法。假設人工智能能夠帶來一個美好的未來,世界在20年后面臨的最大問題就是人口的崩潰。20年后最大的問題就是人口的崩潰并不是人口的爆炸,我們可以很清楚的預見20年后人類的情況。人類重生要花20年。

I absolutely agree with that the population problem is gonna be facing huge challenge. 1.4 billion people in China sounds a lot, but I think next 20 years will see this thing will bring big trouble to China, the speed of population decreasing is gonna speed up, you called collapse, I agree with that, accelerating collapse.  

馬云:我覺得這是很容易預測的,我同意人口問題是一個巨大的挑戰。中國14億人聽起來很多,但是今后20年這會給中國帶來巨大的問題,人口會下降,人口下降的速度會增加,加速崩潰。

Commenter bubbles what about immigration? Like from where? There are people there right now, there are robuts there.

馬斯克:有人反駁說會有移民,從哪里移過來呢?還要去火星,火星也需要有人去住,現在那里沒有人,只有一些機器人在那里。

This is something that we should pay special attention, that’s why the 18 million new babies born in China, which was less than only 1% something, we should spend more time create these people and treat life better.

馬云:這是我們需要特別注意的,我們需要更多時間讓新的孩子出生。

But also, I think about AI, there is another thing. In our company, AI, we called Alibaba intelligence, because we think when things with order, things with logic, machine can always do better, AI can do better. But if things are without order, without logic, human can do better. For example, when you love somebody, there is no reason normally, I just love him/her, I have no reason. But when I hate somebody, when I want to do bad thing on somebody, there is logic. When there is logic, AI can do better. What we do on our Ant financing, we teach machine all the bad things that bad guys want to do. Machine can learn quickly and arrest all the bad guys immediately. But when you want to do good things, not necessarily.

馬云:關于另外一個問題,在我的公司,有秩序、有邏輯的事情,機器總是能夠做得很好,如果沒有秩序或者邏輯,人類可以做得很好。你愛某些人基本上沒有理由,沒有任何道理,但是如果恨一個人,當我想要在一些人身上做一些壞事情就有邏輯了,一旦有邏輯,AI可以比你做得更好。

AI means love.

馬斯克:AI本來就是愛。

That’s absolutely right. That is why the world, if the AI can bring love, which I called, in the past if you are be successful person, you have to be EQ and IQ. In the future, if you want to survive in this world, you have to be the LQ, that’s important too. Otherwise, cannot survive the artificial intelligence time.

馬云:你說得很對,AI世界當中,AI如果能夠帶來愛的話,以前如果你是一個成功的人士必須情商和智商都高,未來想要在世界上生存下來必須有LQ,就是愛的智商要高,不然在人工智能時代沒有辦法生存下來。

Love this answer.

馬斯克:我非常喜歡你的回答。

好啦,聰迷們,體驗完技術同傳有什么感受呢?有沒有覺得也不是那么難?如果你是麥克風前的譯員,會有更好的處理方法嗎?歡迎大家留言寫出你覺得更好的譯文!

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